Saints

St Mark the Apostle – Beginning & End

Today the Coptic Orthodox Church celebrates the Feast of St Mark the Apostle, the founder of the  Coptic Orthodox Church.

St Mark features prominently in the bible as well. For example the Lord chose St. Mark’s house as the one where they ate the Passover before His crucifixion. In his house the very first Eucharist was held and so St. Marks house is actually considered to be the very first Church!

Furthermore in St. Mark’s house  the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost.

St. Mark’s cousin was St. Barnabas and his fathers cousin was St. Peter.

I have selected two interesting stories about this wonderful saint – the beginning and end, hope you enjoy!

How He Arrived to EGYPT – Journey to Alexandria

Arriving at Alexandria totally exhausted, Mark found a cobbler named Anianus and asked him to mend a broken strap of his tattered sandal. When the cobbler took an awl to work on it, he accidentally pierced his finger and cried aloud in Greek, “Heis ho Theos,” that is, “God is One.” Mark’s heart fluttered with joy at this utterance, which betrayed the possibility of his companion’s monotheism, thus opening the door for the preaching of the New Kingdom. After miraculously healing the man’s wound, Mark took courage and delivered the good tidings to the hungry ears of his first convert. In this manner, the initial spark was struck, and the first stone in the foundation of the Coptic church was laid. The cobbler invited the apostle to his home, and he and his family were baptized. There followed other baptisms, and the faithful multiplied. So successful was the movement that the word spread around that a Galilean was in the city preparing to overthrow the idols. Popular feelings began to rise, and people sought out the stranger. Scenting danger in the air, Mark ordained Anianus bishop, with three presbyters (Mylios, Sabinos, and Sardinos) and seven deacons to watch over the growing congregation in case anything befell him.

How He Left EGYPT – Mark’s Martyrdom

At any rate, the Christian population of Alexandria was multiplying at a considerable rate, and rumours ran through the city, as on Mark’s first visit, that under the leadership of Mark the Christians were threatening to overthrow the ancient pagan deities. This possibility inflamed the fury of the idolatrous populace. A hostile mob unremittingly hunted the evangelist. In 68 AD, Easter fell on the same day as the festival of the popular pagan god Serapis. A large group congregated in the temple to Serapis on the occasion and decided to move against the Christians, who, with Mark leading their prayers, were celebrating Easter at their Bucalis church. The mob forced its way into the church and seized the saint, put a rope around his neck, and dragged him about the streets. With the connivance of the authorities, Mark was incarcerated for the night. It is said that the angel of the Lord appeared to him during the night and fortified him to bear the approaching martyr’s crown. On the following day, he was again dragged over the cobbled roads of Alexandria, his body becoming lacerated and his blood covering the ground, until he finally died. But the mob would not stop at that; they wanted to cremate his mutilated body so that there would be no remains for his followers to honor. Though the sources are silent on the matter, it appears that Mark was decapitated after his martyrdom. At this point, however, a violent wind began to blow, and torrential rains poured down on the populace, which dispersed. The Christians stealthily removed the body of the saint and secretly buried him in a grave that they speedily carved in the rock under the altar of the Bucalis church, which has carried his name ever since.

May his prayers be with us all Amen.

28 thoughts on “St Mark the Apostle – Beginning & End

  1. Hey Knuje

    I appreciate your comments and everyone is entitled to their opinion. You have pointed out correctly that Monotheism is a disease however let me add something more to it, its a “Disease against sin”, because of the love we have to the creator.

    In regards to pandeism if God is the Universe, where did he come from and where is he going? Why does evil exist today – Did the God of the universe have two natures? How can God cease his own conciousness in creating the universe? The questions are endless and where is your proof? Its easy to make statements but it takes fact to prove them!

    My Friend let me tell you one thing about my creator in love; My God, my Jesus did not abandon the world for his invisible attributes are seen in the visible creations he has made. His presence is our lives is wonderful, he is with me every step of the way! Try Him!

    God Bless

    Bish

  2. I have tried Jesus, and was surprised to discover that, once the corruptions of the Nicaean Councils and other such blather were stripped away, Jesus too was a pandeist, seeking to tell an unhearing world that all is one, all is the one, and we are all of us equally part of our Creator….

    As to your queries, research pandeism and you will discover that logic and reason provide all the answers, and the proof is in the scientific evidence of the very nature of our origins and self-accelerating existence…. why, just within the past few weeks the Universal Common Ancestor theory was at last proved as to species of life standing for every kingdom!!

    What you must understand, as well, is, pandeism fully accounts for all phenomena related in the Bible (and the Qur’an, and the Bhagavad Gita and the Popol Vuh and every other religious tradition) without making additional assumptions which would be required to account for the truth of any specific faith (much less the relative falsification of others), and so it must be affirmatively disproved before any further assumptions can be drawn upon….

  3. There is a difference in trying Jesus and knowing him and living a life in communion with him. I guess from what you write you have tried Jesus with the mind of Knowledge and failed. The Fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom.

    Let us assume that all the councils where heretical and all people where horrible and so on. Does this exclude the fact that Jesus lived and resurrected? I doubt so very much, many have tried to disprove Jesus. Perhaps you should read Athenogoras’ Works on proving the resurrection without using anything from Christianity or perhaps Josh Mcdowell’s work on such issues. Worth a read, both authors where vehemently opposed to Christianity but in trying to disprove it became great Christians along the way.

    Logic and reason provide all answers………..so where did the universe come from? Im afraid im a simple man, since you have the logic and reason to answer all questions please answer the ones i have posed. For I cannot!

    There is a common creator my friend, not a common ancestor. The closeness of our DNA to other species doesn’t mean we came from them, it means that there is a Genius Designer who is common!

    God Bless

    Bish

  4. Ah, you have deceived me, then. First you implore me to “try him” and then you turn around and beg that to do exactly that is not enough, that I must apparently seek to adopt your view…. well then, you shall have to convince me!!

    So let us have this conversation…. we may begin with the fundamental rules of reason: no proposition may be taken as a given truth unless it is agreed to be so (for example, we may take as a given that 1+1=2, or that an object on a flat plane cannot simultaneously be a perfect square and a perfect circle, without resorting to geometric truths); and no proposition may be deemed necessary if it requires additional assumptions beyond an alternative explanation for the same which requires fewer assumptions…. we will allow for purposes of this journey the unproven and unprovable assumption the Descartian presumption that we do, in fact, actually exist, and we are, in fact, accurately perceiving physical aspects of the world around us…. but, we must in the same stroke acknowledge the fallibility of the human mind, its tendency toward Pareidolia, as well as its consistent incapacity to fully grasp that for which it seeks….

    I begin with the insistence that truths must indeed be Universal — the nature of our Universe (and its metaphysical capacities) must be as true, and as readily arrived at, by an alien subsisting on a world a dozen galaxies from our own, one who may through the same technology find the same information about the physicality of our Universe, but will never know of the existence of Earth or any words written upon it…. within that framework, what does our Universe tell us about our existence, origin, purpose, and destiny?

    At the end of this conversation, either one of us will have been converted to the other’s view, or one of us will have been shown to remain dedicated to a view lacking rational support in light of Universal necessity….

    One more point on the question of evolution — the Universal Common Ancestor confirmation made within the past few weeks shows not the “closeness” of our DNA, but the degree of difference; that is, it shows the degree to which the DNA of closely related species differs from that of the UCA; all living things have certain molecular functions in common, and there is no reason these molecular functions could not be carried out by exactly identical molecules (which would indeed show creation from a common tool chest); and yet these molecular functions are carried out by molecules which are similar and yet not identical — differing by a degree which relates precisely to the degree of distance any two organisms have from their last common ancestor; there is no reason from a design perspective why inter-cellular molecular functions in large fish should be different from those in similarly sized dolphins, but those of the dolphin are less like those of the fish and more like those of the human…. there is no reason why inter-cellular molecular functions in scorpions should differ from those of snakes, and yet those of the scorpion are more like those of the squid than of the snake; and those of the snake are more like those of other vertebrates (including humans) than of the scorpion)…. the breakthrough of the recent discovery was the ability to demonstrate that the non-essential differences among all living things tested vary from the UCA by degrees which match our understanding of how far away we are evolutionarily….

    Debating evolution is really beside the point here, for we could live in a wholesale created world which nonetheless accords with the pandeistic model, but I must ask, is your God not powerful enough to create in such a way that it would need do no more than set forth energy bound by Universal laws, which would come all the way to achieving the origin of intelligent life through nothing more than the culmination of these processes?

  5. It is wonderful that you possess all these philosophical thoughts. However I am afraid that I am a simple man who knows absolutely nothing about what you’re saying.

    Im happy to discuss anything with you or go on any journey that you want, however you have to speak to me in simple English so I can understand what you are saying. There is no point of speaking in a complex style if your reader can not understand it – you’ve lost the battle of convincing anyone if they cannot understand! I hope Pandeism isnt this complex, that a simple man may never understand it.

    However let me make it clear now, I don’t know everything about my creator, nor do I claim that I do, for I think it is very fair that if my Creator was small enough to understand, then he isn’t big enough to worship.

    Moreover I did not deceive you, you have deceived yourself if you tried God and did not know him. How can you say a burger is good if you have not tried it? How can you say the tree is green if you have not seen it? How can you say a car drives well if you have not driven it? You can think this but that would be based entirely on knowledge and events and readings that you have gained information from. There is nothing like personal experience.

    I encourage you to open your heart to the heavens and ask to know God! Many have before you and the creator always answers! Just have an open mind to accept!

    Further, I don’t have to convince you of my God. For my God has been existent before all ages. I can only tell you of my personal experiences with my creator. On the other hand Pandeism was developed in the 16th -17th centuries, the old should not disprove the new, it’s the other way around.

    I hope no offense is taken in what I have written.

    God Bless

    Bish

  6. It is unfortunate that you seem to have dedicated yourself to simplicity insufficient for an understanding of our Universe; for our Universe is, in truth, complex…. abandonment of the difficult rational examination required to properly understand it may suit your desire to adopt a belief system which provides irrational answers, that you may simply leave them unquestioned, but this sort of intellectual laziness profits no true truthseeker….

    And, the rules of formal logic must apply as I have explained them for this discussion to reach a valid conclusion; I reject your claim that your god “has been existent before all ages” and require strict proof, evidence which allows for no explanation requiring fewer assumptions…. will you provide this proof? or will you concede the baselessness of your claim?

    I submit that, in truth, you err in your evaluation of your god’s pedigree, for many amongst the ideas underlying pandeism were expressed by the ancient Milesians, and others of their era, before the idea of your god was fully invented. The oldest written work known to man, the Epic of Gilgamesh, describes a polytheistic Universe with many gods and no “greatest” one — by your logic, does its superior precedence prove its gods over yours?

  7. Hey Mate

    You make me laugh, i dunno why you think its reasonable that i need to have a major in philosphy to understand what your on about. Im afraid there is one thing your doing, and doing very well. Your complexity is so complex that you have complexly confused and made irrational any form of normal conversation with anyone.

    Moreover your challenge of me finding proof is irrational as what you believe in. Where did your Universe come From? and where is your proof? Non-existant i bet! How can something come out of nothing?

    Intellectual laziness- Your intellectually brainwashed, i call that laziness, You believe in wishy washy fairyfloss ideas based on debased and unfounded claims such as those in that video you have posted.

    Ill pray 4 u

    Bish

  8. Do you think it reasonable that someone hanging out their own blog on religion would be able to hold their own in a discussion of the subject? But I’ll try to simplify it for you…. you can’t make things so by claiming them; suppose you go to a grocery where they don’t know you to buy a bottle of wine, but you have no ID and no money on you — you tell them its okay, you’re of age and you have the money at home, and you’ll bring it in the next day. They don’t have to accept that on your sayso and the world wouldn’t work if they did have to, so you’ve got to bring proof to back your claims of age and means….

    And I don’t see how you can suppose me to be “intellectually brainwashed” when you have yourself expressed a total lack of understanding of what I’m about, and have made no logical argument sufficient to counter my view. You ask for example, “How can something come out of nothing?” It can’t, I agree, and that’s not at all what pandeism asserts, so there’s no “argument” there, you see? But I’ll put the argument back to you, for pandeism teaches that our Universe has a Creator, and all things are therefore of the substance of our Creator (I’ll readily prove this later on, through fundamental quantum physics, and the Pandeist Theorem of physicist Robert G. Brown) — so, here’s the question, if nothing exists in the beginning except our Creator, where else could the substance of our Universe come from but from the substance of our Creator? Does that substance “come from nothing”?

  9. Let me begin by saying, i do not claim so. History reveals the Figure of Jesus to be the Son of God. A miracle worker and wonderworker. Therefore when i say that i believe in Jesus being the word of God, im not asking you to believe on my sayso. Im asking you to research the books and see who this figure was.

    Now focusing on pandeism i believe that there are several flaws in this philosophical argument.

    1. If God becomes the universe and all that is therin, you limit the creator. His conciousness ceases. He commits sucide basically? How can this be, that the creator limits himself to this. I do not understand!

    2. If God becomes the universe, then all the universe must conform to his ideas which takes away our Free will. We are all basically members of this one big God. If this is so, then morally we have no morals. Why is there evil and good? Did the God of the pandeists have 2 natures, am i missing something?

    3. If God becomes the univese, all of mankind by proxy, should have the knowledge of this creator, the power of this creator and the conciousness of this creator. In simple you become part of this God, a member of his body! Which again is hard to fathom since God should be all good and without Sin. However man is inclined to do evil.

    4. If God becomes the universe and ceases all control, who is the superior of this God! What happens after Death, where will you go, who will you be?

    5.If God becomes the universe, how do u explain all the supernatural phenomena that occurs in the world, such as the apparition of St Mary in Zeitoun Egypt. Are people crazy, are all people schizophrenics – hearing voices and seeing visions. I would agree if there wasnt people being cured from incurable cancers and so on.

    You have correctly stated that in the beginning we have one Creator. Christianity agrees with this. However we believe that God spoke the creation into being. Let there be light and there was light. Let there be animals and there was animals. His word became these objects. However we do not believe that the creator himself became these creations. I dont believe that my Creator is a Dog or a prostitute! You may wish to believe this if you so wish, but i think its absurd. The substance did not come from nothing, it came from God, But is NOT God! Believing this is the only way to answer the above questions!

    Bish

  10. I have done the research — into Jesus and Muhammad, the Buddha, Arjuna, Zoroaster, Moroni, Gilgamesh, and many others — any of their followers could claim that history teaches the miracles and divine truths supporting them; in this regard all are equal, and yet all are exclusive of the others, and so equally untrue….

    But let us focus on Pandeism, and your concerns, especially.

    1. Is your god not powerful enough to limit its own consciousness? This is a voluntary act on the part of the Creator outlined in Pandeism, and so it is a positive capacity, an ability…. do you confess your god to lack an ability possessed by the pandeistic Creator? If so, you already admit the inferiority of yours…. As to the charge that the pandeistic Creator “commits suicide” this is a common misconception — do you commit suicide each night, when you surrender your consciousness to sleep? The Creator in pandeism, yes, becomes our Universe, and so ceases to be a conscious entity for the duration of the Creation — but the Universe is, then, not destined to exist forever; and we will doubtless discover the very laws of physics to dictate the event of its return to its previous form, a reawakening of our Creator with the additional knowledge of the experience of our Universe….

    2. Why do you imagine that if the Creator becomes the Universe, it follows that the Universe must “conform to his ideas”? The Creator outlined in Pandeism does not know in advance what will occur in the Universe it creates, and so the Creation conforms to nothing but laws of physics, set down by the Creator in the moment of Creation, and permitting for actual unknowable outcomes to occur every second of every day. In quantum physics, there are true splits of possibilities, wherein an electron has an exactly equal chance of going in either direction, and the direction it does go is not predetermined, but simply random. The same scales up to apply to every facet of life — tho our Universe is elegantly designed with laws that make it inevitable that intelligent life will arise at some point and in some place, there is no predestination for where or when or what such life will do….

    3. I simply don’t see that it follows that all mankind, or any man, “by proxy, should have the knowledge of this creator, the power of this creator and the conciousness of this creator”…. why do you suppose this? Consider the experience of your own body, which is made of roughly 75 trillion cells (not counting perhaps 750 trillion bacteria and other microorganisms living on and inside your body at all times); every single cell of your own carries a molecular blueprint of you in the form of your DNA, but does any one of them share in your knowledge? Even your trillions of brain cells, does any single example among them carry completely your understanding of the world? And yet, the number of cells in your entire body is a fraction compared to the number of stars in our Universe…. and if pandeism be true, then the entire Universe is what our Creator has become, and so any individual human is so small a fraction of that, that all of humanity combined makes up less of it than a single sub-atomic particle makes up of your entire body!! But this is not to say that individual humans can not, from time to time, catch a glimpse of the tiny fragment of our Creator which they are — but so powerful is the Creator, that these tiny glimpses of its unconscious mind are instantly mistaken for communications from a conscious mind!! Hence, all visions and revelations and experiences of the divine….

    Now, why do you suppose “God should be all good and without Sin”? Here is a claim that requires objective evidence — and what is “good” and what is “Sin”? I suppose we can agree, in general terms, on what evil is, but what of the nature of our Universe necessitates that our Creator operate in any moral dimensions at all, or even have any awareness of them prior to our existence? And what is your evidence that man is “inclined to evil”?

    4. Why should there be any superior of the Creator simply because the Creator ceases its control for the duration of our Universe? It still is, after all, our Universe…. ah, and as for death — we are as one with our Universe, and remain so eternally once we have existed — and so, when our Universe ceases again to be a Universe and returns to its state of existing as the Creator, we will be one with our Creator in every sense, and will share in all of its experience of our Universe…. where did you come from before you were born? If you answer that you came into being in any sense from the will of your God, how are you not then of your God, how can you (or anyone) be inclined toward anything but Godliness?

    5. How better to explain all the supernatural phenomena that occurs in the world but that our Creator has become our Universe, and so our Universe is itself alive with the potentiality of the Creator…. Some people, naturally, are in truth simply crazy; but those who touch upon the unconscious mind of our Creator are simply mistaken as to the significance of what they experience in that moment…. consider those people being cured of incurable cancer — yes, miraculous, but not requiring the active intervention of a conscious God, for as you suggest yourself, mankind by proxy would have the power of this Creator — and tho I provided the limitation, the power being the most minute fragment of the whole, still this is power enough that one who prays may indeed tap for a moment into that well and call forth a miracle from the unconscious store of power within and around them. Now, consider, miraculous cures of cancer and similar maladies occur amongst all faiths; as many Christians as can claim such a miracle, so do as many Muslims and Hindus (actual scientific studies have proved no significant differentiation in the miracle-cure rate among these faiths) and Jews and Mormons and yes, even some Pantheists and Deists. People born into isolated tribes having no contact with the developed world, and never having heard of its religions, nor with any chance to hear of them, pray to their deities after a fashion and occasionally have miraculous events as well. Why should this be, for them or any of any faith except one faith deemed “true” against all others? The only rational explanation is that all of these faiths stand equal in their falsity, and there is yet one divine truth which permits persons of a certain talent in exerting any faith to experience the miraculous!!

    As for your very Augustinian objection to your Creator being “a Dog or prostitute” — well that is simply an appeal to emotion with no rational basis…. does not the knowledge of the Creator encompass every thing known or felt or done by the dog, or the prostitute? If not, how is it that your model of a Creator is able to be kept in the dark, so supressed from having this information (and, in truth, at the end of the day all that there is is simply information)….

  11. I have done the research — into Jesus and Muhammad, the Buddha, Arjuna, Zoroaster, Moroni, Gilgamesh, and many others — any of their followers could claim that history teaches the miracles and divine truths supporting them; in this regard all are equal, and yet all are exclusive of the others, and so equally untrue….
    Just because the believers say that history teaches the miracles does not mean they are correct. There must be examination of what they say. Furthermore in none of the religions you have mentioned does Resurrection occur from the Dead except in Christianity. So this is what puts it miles ahead of the Rest.
    But let us focus on Pandeism, and your concerns, especially.

    1. Is your god not powerful enough to limit itsown consciousness?

    Ofcourse not, however God is above Time, he is not of time. In medicine we define conciousness as the level of alertness of Time, Place, Person & Orientation.

    This is a voluntary act on the part of the Creator outlined in Pandeism, and so it is a positive capacity, an ability…. do you confess your god to lack an ability possessed by the pandeistic Creator? If so, you already admit the inferiority of yours….
    I can also quite equally respond by saying, is your creator not capable of being above time. Does he not have the capability to create without ceasing his own existance and authority or conciousness……..ahhh makes him less superior than my God. You are arguing the will of God, and unless you are God and his mind you will be only chasing your tail.
    As to the charge that the pandeistic Creator “commits suicide” this is a common misconception — do you commit suicide each night, when you surrender your consciousness to sleep?
    So your saying the Pandeistic God, is sleeping since he set the laws of universe in place and is absolutely unaware of what is happening in his universe. He has no sense of time, place or orientation. I think this is a pretty pathetic God!
    The Creator in pandeism, yes, becomes our Universe, and so ceases to be a conscious entity for the duration of the Creation — but the Universe is, then, not destined to exist forever; and we will doubtless discover the very laws of physics to dictate the event of its return to its previous form, a reawakening of our Creator with the additional knowledge of the experience of our Universe….
    This is defies all laws, of physics such as the second law of thermodynamics. The world does not return to order, it continues to become more disordered. How do you expect me to wait for my 1994 falcon to return to its original state? I call this lunacy. Moreover your creator must be unintelligent if he has to wait until the end of the universe to gain its experience. My God, is all knowing, all powerful and Everywhere.

    2. Why do you imagine that if the Creator becomes the Universe, it follows that the Universe must “conform to his ideas”? The Creator outlined in Pandeism does not know in advance what will occur in the Universe it creates, and so the Creation conforms to nothing but laws of physics, set down by the Creator in the moment of Creation, and permitting for actual unknowable outcomes to occur every second of every day.

    Hhahahah, this debunks your own argument previously mentioned that someday your creator will be awakened. He set down his own consciousness not knowing whether or not he will ever arise. Pretty Pathetic I think. A super powerful God who really is not super powerful. A God that conforms to time and Fate.
    In quantum physics, there are true splits of possibilities, wherein an electron has an exactly equal chance of going in either direction, and the direction it does go is not predetermined, but simply random. The same scales up to apply to every facet of life — tho our Universe is elegantly designed with laws that make it inevitable that intelligent life will arise at some point and in some place, there is no predestination for where or when or what such life will do….
    You have absolutely no evidence that intelligent life will arise from nothing. Never has and never will. I can look at my wall till the cows come home, but a TV will never pop up. Moreover you say the direction is random, well its random to you because you have not worked out why it moves in that direction. In the future you will properly have some physicist work out a rule for it. The Earth was believed to be flat one day, doesn’t mean it is!
    3. I simply don’t see that it follows that all mankind, or any man, “by proxy, should have the knowledge of this creator, the power of this creator and the conciousness of this creator”…. why do you suppose this? Consider the experience of your own body, which is made of roughly 75 trillion cells (not counting perhaps 750 trillion bacteria and other microorganisms living on and inside your body at all times); every single cell of your own carries a molecular blueprint of you in the form of your DNA, but does any one of them share in your knowledge? Even your trillions of brain cells, does any single example among them carry completely your understanding of the world? And yet, the number of cells in your entire body is a fraction compared to the number of stars in our Universe…. and if pandeism be true, then the entire Universe is what our Creator has become, and so any individual human is so small a fraction of that, that all of humanity combined makes up less of it than a single sub-atomic particle makes up of your entire body!! But this is not to say that individual humans can not, from time to time, catch a glimpse of the tiny fragment of our Creator which they are — but so powerful is the Creator, that these tiny glimpses of its unconscious mind are instantly mistaken for communications from a conscious mind!! Hence, all visions and revelations and experiences of the divine….
    I find this the most absurd analogy. I would agree with you if we had a trillion billion species of man. But no we have Male & Female only. So your creator must of given off two fragments only to create man. This is pretty much what Christianity Teaches- He made man from Dust and woman form the Rib of man. Secondly If your God is unconscious how does new life partake of his presence. If he has no idea of what is happening around him then how does new life begin. Also a powerful creator who waits in hope for the laws of physics to reorder the world back to its origin. You will be waiting a very very long time hahhaha.
    Now, why do you suppose “God should be all good and without Sin”? Here is a claim that requires objective evidence — and what is “good” and what is “Sin”? I suppose we can agree, in general terms, on what evil is, but what of the nature of our Universe necessitates that our Creator operate in any moral dimensions at all, or even have any awareness of them prior to our existence? And what is your evidence that man is “inclined to evil”?
    It’s ok ill go kill your father, and mother, and brothers and sisters and stand up in the court of law any say, my pandeistic belief says that my fragment given to me by my God, enabled me to cause this atrocity. If good does not exist I can also kill you. Don’t you agree? Your belief seems to be a belief with no morals by the sound of things. You are not answerable to anyone, you are your own God.

    4. Why should there be any superior of the Creator simply because the Creator ceases its control for the duration of our Universe? It still is, after all, our Universe…. ah, and as for death — we are as one with our Universe, and remain so eternally once we have existed — and so, when our Universe ceases again to be a Universe and returns to its state of existing as the Creator, we will be one with our Creator in every sense, and will share in all of its experience of our Universe…. where did you come from before you were born? If you answer that you came into being in any sense from the will of your God, how are you not then of your God, how can you (or anyone) be inclined toward anything but Godliness?
    I again point out to you the following; My God can create without having to be the creation. Where did I come from? My parents, by a process established by the creator when he originally created man and woman. However he is the one that gives me life, my spirit! This does not mean he has to be the universe to give me this spirit. He is above time and that is a mystery I have no answers to.
    5. How better to explain all the supernatural phenomena that occurs in the world but that our Creator has become our Universe, and so our Universe is itself alive with the potentiality of the Creator…. Some people, naturally, are in truth simply crazy; but those who touch upon the unconscious mind of our Creator are simply mistaken as to the significance of what they experience in that moment…. consider those people being cured of incurable cancer — yes, miraculous, but not requiring the active intervention of a conscious God, for as you suggest yourself, mankind by proxy would have the power of this Creator — and tho I provided the limitation, the power being the most minute fragment of the whole, still this is power enough that one who prays may indeed tap for a moment into that well and call forth a miracle from the unconscious store of power within and around them. Now, consider, miraculous cures of cancer and similar maladies occur amongst all faiths; as many Christians as can claim such a miracle, so do as many Muslims and Hindus (actual scientific studies have proved no significant differentiation in the miracle-cure rate among these faiths) and Jews and Mormons and yes, even some Pantheists and Deists. People born into isolated tribes having no contact with the developed world, and never having heard of its religions, nor with any chance to hear of them, pray to their deities after a fashion and occasionally have miraculous events as well. Why should this be, for them or any of any faith except one faith deemed “true” against all others? The only rational explanation is that all of these faiths stand equal in their falsity, and there is yet one divine truth which permits persons of a certain talent in exerting any faith to experience the miraculous!!
    Do you really believe what you are saying. How can you tap into something that is unconscious. I can speak to someone who is unconscious for hours and will never be able to elicit any response from them, yet alone tap into their power. I furthermore cannot see where this argument is coming from at all, you have absolutely no evidence. My dad was lucky enough with millions of people all over the world to witness the apparition of St Mary in Zeitoun (google it). How could such an apparition occur if the God of pandeism is still unconscious? Does he temporarily awake? If so then I guess the laws of physics must have been found. Absurd to say the least. Furthermore in no religion, have miracles been proven besides Christianity. Name me miracles done by the name of Mohammad and don’t say the crying tree!
    As for your very Augustinian objection to your Creator being “a Dog or prostitute” — well that is simply an appeal to emotion with no rational basis…. does not the knowledge of the Creator encompass every thing known or felt or done by the dog, or the prostitute? If not, how is it that your model of a Creator is able to be kept in the dark, so supressed from having this information (and, in truth, at the end of the day all that there is is simply information)….
    No Rational basis, this is exactly what pandeism is. You seem to be making the rules as you go along. The dog is a fragment of your Deus so is the prostitute so is whatever else. And ofcourse my creator acknowledges and knows full well what is felt by a dog and prostitute. He created the act of sex and knows what it entails. He also created the Dog and knows what that life is about to. However that doesn’t mean he is the dog or prostitute. Further the prostitute does nothing out of the ordinary. It’s the sin of prostitution, that goes against all natural law and morality that would make the pandeistic God also without morals or law.

  12. Too many points requiring response to dwell much on any one of them, so let us begin with the fundamental: Pandeism proposes an entity capable of designing the governing dynamics of a Universe as intricate as ours, and with a mere act of will transferring the whole of its being into the birth of the Universe so created — a Universe that unfolds so as to culminate in the rise of intelligent life from so humble a beginning as an inconceivably minute spark of inconceivably immense energy — and so, if you deem a being of such creative capacity and power to be “pretty pathetic” and “unintelligent,” what does that make humans — any of us — by comparison? Certainly that is more impressive then merely reanimating a single recently deceased corpse for a time — a parlor trick by comparison….

    Pandeism proposes a Creator which is precisely knowledgeable enough, and precisely powerful enough, to set forth the Universe in which we live, which we are able to observe, measure, and calculate its capacities…. what evidence have you to support the assumption that our Creator has one whit more power or intellect than what is required to set forth the finite Universe we are able to observe? It is simply not necessary to assign any greater capacity to our Creator than is absolutely required for the Creation of that which we observe, and we can not and do not observe an actual infinite, anywhere….

    Now, as to your misconception of the second law of thermodynamics — Tokyo, for example, exhibits far more order today than it did a hundred years ago, does that not also defy the second law of thermodynamics? And yet, there it is…. but here’s a real brain teaser, if everything tends towards chaos then eventually chaos will be uniformly distributed, which is itself a form of order — so everything tends toward order!!

    As to morality — would it be immoral for you to kill other people? Naturally it would, and pandeism addresses this as a fundamental immorality, for would you say that in the absence of a God such a thing would be moral? It is truly frightening that theists seem to believe the only reason such things to be immoral is because they have written of a god sharing their opinion — but, naturally, their god also changes “his” opinion as they change theirs, resulting in logical inconsistencies…. pandeism is logically consistent here: because all things are part of our Creator, every injury you do to another, you do to your own Creator, and so ultimately to yourself, for if we as individual experience-holders continue to exist in the whole of the Creator as it is returned at the end of our Universe, so shall we share in the experiences of all whom we have affected, for good or ill…. if you kill someone, you’ll share in their experience of having been killed, and in the experience of everyone who was made to suffer by the death of that person; but if you give someone love, or joy, or pleasure, so shall you share in that — a more rational and just outcome than the simple lumping together of some heinous acts which others which merely met the distaste of the religious forces of a certain day (such as sexual acts shared between consenting adults outside of “marriage,” or engaging in frivolity during disapproved hours, or uttering of certain words even in one’s own solitude); you speak for example of the “sin” of prostitution, but what proof have you that the activity is any more “sinful” than usury or hunting for pleasure, or littering (any of which potentially work a harm on others)….

    And as to the eventual reconstruction of our Creator from the substance of our Universe, the contradiction you imagine does not exist; consider: I take a block of ice and leave it out under the summer Sun…. naturally it will melt and evaporate and the molecules may disperse far and wide, and there is no way to even imagine the path each will end up taking, but the very entropy you assert guarantees one certainty: every molecule that began within that block of ice will one day will one day again be in a frozen state…. it is, just so, possible for our Creator to become a Universe which may pass through any number of random, unpredictable, even unimaginable courses of events — and yet still be inevitably destined to end in the same state in which it began….

    And as to tapping into something unconscious, do you not dream? You compare this to speaking with another person who is unconscious, but the whole failure of your analogy begins when you imagine that you may separate yourself from the Creator; but all things are but expressions of one thing, and that one thing is the basic energy of which all things are made, the vibrating twists of space itself which form the sub-subquarks, and all of these are connected such that what happens to one here can instantly affect another half a Universe away…. the experience of seeing apparitions or other visions, whether alone or in a mob, is simply the experience of a glimpse of the unconscious mind underlying and sustaining this existence, just as your unconscious brain sustains your breathing and heartbeat while you sleep; if you talk in your sleep, some theist (indeed a gaggle of them) might mistake your mumblings for some profound conscious communication…. and that’s just you, imagine what people make of the merest glimpse of the incomprehensible unconscious mind of our Creator at work!! Why, they’d have no chance but to be misled to think of so immense of a mind as the commanding presence of a conscious and aware deity!! And, naturally, why wouldn’t humans think themselves so special and wonderful and superior that the Creator of a Universe of hundreds of trillions of stars and worlds would bow to give all of its attention to the inhabitants of this one planet….

    And so, even your own intensity in support of your theological model is fully accounted for and explained by the pandeistic model….

  13. Too many points requiring response to dwell much on any one of them, so let us begin with the fundamental: Pandeism proposes an entity capable of designing the governing dynamics of a Universe as intricate as ours, and with a mere act of will transferring the whole of its being into the birth of the Universe so created — a Universe that unfolds so as to culminate in the rise of intelligent life from so humble a beginning as an inconceivably minute spark of inconceivably immense energy – EVIDENCE PLEASE???? – and so, if you deem a being of such creative capacity and power to be “pretty pathetic” and “unintelligent,” what does that make humans — any of us — by comparison? MMM i never said we were anywhere near our creator, if anything your trying to say that even though we are part of this creator and fragments of him, we do not possess his energy. Yet later on in your reply you give me the analogy of an iceblock melting. Ice is made of H20 molecules, and ya i agree they could become ice one day, but thats because they are all the same, simple H20 molecules. So please stick with one line of argument, either we are all fragments with differences or all the same fragment Certainly that is more impressive then merely reanimating a single recently deceased corpse for a time — a parlor trick by comparison…. hahahhaha trick, maybe if you arose your mate from the dead, but for you to rise from the dead by yourself, it has never happened and will never happen, so it is more of a trick. Just because it does not conform to your imaginary philosophical ideas does not mean it is an act unprecedented in all of creation!

    Pandeism proposes I love the word propose, cause thats what it actually is, you have no evidence besides what you think are some physical laws that you say proves what you are saying. Christianity doesn’t propose, because we know the truth, because it has been revealed in History and to this very da.! Slight difference i think. a Creator which is precisely knowledgeable enough, and precisely powerful enough, to set forth the Universe in which we live, which we are able to observe, measure, and calculate its capacities…. what evidence have you to support the assumption that our Creator has one whit more power or intellect than what is required to set forth the finite Universe we are able to observe? What evidence do you have against? Again you are arguing the will of God, which makes no sense, because we are not God! It is simply not necessary to assign any greater capacity to our Creator than is absolutely required for the Creation of that which we observe, and we can not and do not observe an actual infinite, anywhere….

    Now, as to your misconception of the second law of thermodynamics — Tokyo, for example, exhibits far more order today than it did a hundred years ago, does that not also defy the second law of thermodynamics? And yet, there it is…. but here’s a real brain teaser, if everything tends towards chaos then eventually chaos will be uniformly distributed, which is itself a form of order — so everything tends toward order!! hahahhaha Tokyo, shows more order in what way, new buildings new roads etc. But im sure the building built 100 years ago has deteriorated and most probably been knocked down. Reorder or man-made order? If man does not interfere everything is destined to disorder. Further there is no limit to disorder, things can keep on deteriorating! I think you need to work on your understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics!

    As to morality — would it be immoral for you to kill other people? Naturally it would, and pandeism addresses this as a fundamental immoralityWHY?Strong>, for would you say that in the absence of a God such a thing would be moral? If you are not answerable to anyone and you are your own God, why would you need to worry. You set your own rules. It is truly frightening that theists seem to believe the only reason such things to be immoral is because they have written of a god sharing their opinion — but, naturally, their god also changes “his” opinion as they change theirs, resulting in logical inconsistencies When has the Christian God changed his mind…….Evidence Please??????…. pandeism is logically consistent here: because all things are part of our Creator, every injury you do to another, you do to your own Creator, and so ultimately to yourself, for if we as individual experience-holders continue to exist in the whole of the Creator as it is returned at the end of our Universe, so shall we share in the experiences of all whom we have affected, for good or ill…. if you kill someone, you’ll share in their experience of having been killed, and in the experience of
    everyone who was made to suffer by the death of that person; but if you give someone love, or joy, or pleasure, so shall you share in that — a more rational and just outcome than the simple lumping together of some heinous acts which others which merely met the distaste of the religious forces of a certain day (such as sexual acts shared between consenting adults outside of “marriage,” or engaging in frivolity during disapproved hours, or uttering of certain words even in one’s own solitude); you speak for example of the “sin” of prostitution, but what proof have you that the activity is any more “sinful” than usury or hunting for pleasure, or littering (any of which potentially work a harm on others)…. Sin is Sin nowhere have i said one sin is greater than the other. Sin is Sin and Sin is a separation from God.

    And as to the eventual reconstruction of our Creator from the substance of our Universe, the contradiction you imagine does not exist; consider: I take a block of ice and leave it out under the summer Sun…. naturally it will melt and evaporate and the molecules may disperse far and wide, and there is no way to even imagine the path each will end up taking, but the very entropy you assert guarantees one certainty: every molecule that began within that block of ice will one day will one day again be in a frozen state… Not if the block was in the sahara desert i assure you of this!. it is, just so, possible for our Creator to become a Universe which may pass through any number of random, unpredictable, even unimaginable courses of events — and yet still be inevitably destined to end in the same state in which it began…. EVIDENCE PLEASE????

    And as to tapping into something unconscious, do you not dream? You compare this to speaking with another person who is unconscious, but the whole failure of your analogy begins when you imagine that you may separate yourself from the Creator I have never separated myself from my creator, for i have the Holy Spirit – The power of God within me! ; but all things are but expressions of one thing, and that one thing is the basic energy of which all things are made, the vibrating twists of space itself which form the sub-subquarks, I don’t think my spirit is made from sub-subquarks unless you can prove it of course! and all of these are connected such that what happens to one here can instantly affect another half a Universe away…. the experience of seeing apparitions or other visions, whether alone or in a mob, is simply the experience of a glimpse of the unconscious mind underlying and sustaining this existence, just as your unconscious brain sustains your breathing and heartbeat while you sleep; if you talk in your sleep, some theist (indeed a gaggle of them) might mistake your mumblings for some profound conscious communication… Id agree with you if whole hospitals where not healed. Babble is what your doing currently, trying to combine the temporal with the untemporal, the physical with the unphysical. Moreover if this was the case, why is the apparition at Zeitoun of the mother of Jesus, on top of a church, why not on a mosque, or a Buddhist temple. Does the pandeistic God favour Christianity. . and that’s just you, imagine what
    people make of the merest glimpse of the incomprehensible unconscious mind of our Creator at work!! Why, they’d have no chance but to be misled to think of so immense of a mind as the commanding presence of a conscious and aware deity!! And, naturally, why wouldn’t humans think themselves so special and wonderful and superior that the Creator of a Universe of hundreds of trillions of stars and worlds would bow to give all of its attention to the inhabitants of this one planet….

    And so, even your own intensity in support of your theological model is fully accounted for and explained by the pandeistic model…. Difference is my Faith is not a model, it answers all my questions, and i have nothing to fear or Death. I feel my creator every day, and I don’t need to do philosophy to understand him (not saying if i did philosophy i would believe in pandeism)

  14. “Not if the block was in the sahara desert i assure you of this!” — really? Not in a billion years? not in a hundred billion years? The entropic Second Law of Thermodynamics you championed before requires the eventual dissipation of heat, and so it is indeed inevitable that the water molecules will one day, again, be frozen. And that, simply, is the point…. systems exist in which occurrences along the path of systemic development are random and unpredictable and provide novel experiences, and yet the ultimate outcome is assured by the governing dynamics of the system….

    And, as to assertions about the nature of our Creator; I could insist that our Creator’s favorite color is purple, an assertion that can not be disproved; but my insistence does not make it so, and nothing within our Universe requires it to be true….

    We agree, naturally, that our Universe is at some level the product of a designer’s intent; it follows by necessity that we agree that our Creator is AT LEAST intelligent enough and powerful enough to engage in such an act of Creation…. but there is not one particle of energy nor one law of physics whose existence depends upon our Creator setting down moral designations; nothing in the nature of our Universe commands that fornication between desiring adults is wrong in the least, or that simply holding any belief or desire is wrong…. and you say Sin is Sin is Sin? How unjust, that a pair of coldhearted murderers is no worse in your view than two consenting adult lovers who engage in sexual intercourse without bothering with the formality of marriage…. that the enslavement of another human, which is nowhere derided as a “sin” in your faith gets a pass while invoking the name of God in making a harmless false promise is worthy of condemnation….

    Pandeism fully accounts for the potential for “whole hospitals” to be healed; what is a hospital in the scope of our Universe? An entire galaxy is a simple speck, so, even supposing (just hypothetically) some localised entity exists which is able to actively performs miraculous feats on one planet orbiting a single star in an outward arm of one such galaxy, there is no basis in reason to suppose such an entity to be the same as the much greater one responsible for the Creation of our Universe…. nothing reliably recorded in human experience suggests any such power to extend beyond our planet…. but that is even presuming such an entity exists; if man is able to unwittingly tap into a fragment of the unconscious power of the Creator within and around us all, that adequately explains all instances of the miraculous without even making the assumption of an external entity….

    Your claim that miracles favor Christians is probably coloured by your experience as a Christian; live among Buddhists or Muslims and you will hear, daily, accounts of miracles as great as any reliably reported in Christianity. You may choose to reject this fact by fiat, but that is simply an expression of ignorance, not of superiority….

    And yes, your theological model is a theological model, as are all propositions extolling a set of characteristics of the Creator and Sustainer of our Universe….

    1. “Not if the block was in the sahara desert i assure you of this!” — really? Not in a billion years? not in a hundred billion years? Your Evidence is required for this, because if anything the sun would have expanded from its original size, meaning we would be a lot hotter in a billion years time – You cant just say billions of years without evidence? I can’t say you murdered in court, if i have no evidence! The entropic Second Law of Thermodynamics you championed before requires the eventual dissipation of heat, Why, and if so, things are being continually developed by man and nature that need to be broken down, its an endless cycle buddy! and so it is indeed inevitable that the water molecules will one day, again, be frozen. You live in the philosophical world, where as i live in the real one, i don’t wait for billions of years to realise who i am, i know who i am through my Saviour Jesus Christ And that, simply, is the point.. I don’t see it .. systems exist in which occurrences along the path of systemic development are random and unpredictable and provide novel experiences Just because you don’t understand something does not mean its random or novel .., and yet the ultimate outcome is assured by the governing dynamics of the system….

      And, as to assertions about the nature of our Creator; I could insist that our Creator’s favourite colour is purple, an assertion that cannot be disproved; but my insistence does not make it so, and nothing within our Universe requires it to be true…. We agree on this, but if the saviour comes down on Earth in the figure of Jesus and says things to be true, we must believe him..

      We agree, naturally, that our Universe is at some level the product of a designer’s intent; it follows by necessity that we agree that our Creator is AT LEAST intelligent enough and powerful enough to engage in such an act of Creation.. Yes …. but there is not one particle of energy nor one law of physics whose existence depends upon our Creator setting down moral designations; you must have spirit for morality to exist .. nothing in the nature of our Universe commands that fornication between desiring adults is wrong in the least, or that simply holding any belief or desire is wrong…. and you say Sin is Sin is Sin? How unjust, that a pair of coldhearted murderers is no worse in your view than two consenting adult lovers who engage in sexual intercourse without bothering with the formality of marriage…. that the enslavement of another human, which is nowhere derided as a “sin” in your faith gets a pass while invoking the name of God in making a harmless false promise is worthy of condemnation…. Sin is sin in that is a separation from God, no matter how big or small the sin, Our creator gives us the chance to repent and confess our sins. Is this not fair? .

      Pandeism fully accounts for the potential for “whole hospitals” to be healed Has never happened do you have examples? ..; what is a hospital in the scope of our Universe? An entire galaxy is a simple speck, so, even supposing (just hypothetically) some localised entity exists which is able to actively performs miraculous feats on one planet orbiting a single star in an outward arm of one such galaxy, there is no basis in reason to suppose such an entity to be the same as the much greater one responsible for the Creation of our Universe…. nothing reliably recorded in human experience suggests any such power to extend beyond our planet…. but that is even presuming such an entity exists; if man is able to unwittingly tap into a fragment of the unconscious power of the Creator within and around us all, that adequately explains all instances of the miraculous without even making the assumption of an external entity…. EVIDENCE?????? You keep making insane hypothetical assumptions with absolutely no evidence, either provide evidence for this or keep it yourself. ..

      Your claim that miracles favor Christians is probably coloured by your experience as a Christian; live among Buddhists or Muslims and you will hear, daily, accounts of miracles as great as any reliably reported in Christianity. You may choose to reject this fact by fiat, but that is simply an expression of ignorance, not of superiority…. I don’ think you have any idea about where i lived, go live in Egypt or a few as i have, Muslims everywhere, yet they deep down know the power of the Christian God. Moreover you must provide evidence to ascertain the authenticity of miracles, Easy to say, hard to prove!..

      And yes, your theological model is a theological model, as are all propositions extolling a set of characteristics of the Creator and Sustainer of our Universe…. They would be propositions if there was no evidence, or God did not incarnate on Earth and revealed to us the Mystery of his Godliness! .

  15. This is too much now…. are you unaware of the very mechanisms by which our Sun works? that it will, eventually, burn out (even if it first expands to a red giant, in its last gasps)? and that everything within its domain will, thusly, freeze?

    And, historically, we have almost universally NOT believed those who claim to be the saviour come down on Earth, when they say things to be true, so it is untrue that we must believe such persons, and even more untrue when the accounts of such persons’ claims are not even written by them, but claimed by others on their behalf….

    But I do very much agree that “you must provide evidence to ascertain the authenticity of miracles” — and such evidence must be extraordinary, such that it disqualifies natural occurrences; the laws of formal logic apply: if a certain set of conditions suffice to fully explain the occurrence of an event, additional assumptions unnecessary to such explanation are assigned no probability of being true….

  16. Hi,

    Just on the point of the Sun. I was sent an article that was found on the NASA website that speaks of a planet being “eaten” (or absorbed) by a star.

    http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/science/planet-eater.html

    Now I’m not involved in the field of Astronomy (or Physics for that matter – I’m in IT) but the article seems to be proposing the opposite of what’s being said here. If nothing else, the artist’s rendition of the observation is pretty cool!

    Confirmed by the original commenter, it just seems to me that people will go to any lengths to try to justify doing what they know is wrong. I pray that God the Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent leads us all to a deeper and more humble understanding of Him. This is what will help foster our true relationship with Him, glorifying Him always.

    God bless,
    Andrew

  17. This is too much now…. are you unaware of the very mechanisms by which our Sun works? that it will, eventually, burn out (even if it first expands to a red giant, in its last gasps)? and that everything within its domain will, thusly, freeze? Time to go back to your astronomy text books, a white dwarf the eventual fate of stars, they have a surface temperature of about 6000K, a white dwarf is not an iceblock mate! Moreover let us assume that the sun becomes ice, we are talking about the universe here, there a heaps of new stars forming daily, where is the end of the universe?

    And, historically, we have almost universally NOT believed those who claim to be the saviour come down on Earth, when they say things to be true, Of course we have people such as yourself, who propose wonderful things as pandeism with absolutely no basis. so it is untrue that we must believe such persons, and even more untrue when the accounts of such persons’ claims are not even written by them, but claimed by others on their behalf…. The 10 commandments where written by the finger of God in Christianity! Moreover if what people wrote about an individual is wrong, you wouldn’t convert millions, you wouldn’t die for him and so on.

    But I do very much agree that “you must provide evidence to ascertain the authenticity of miracles” — and such evidence must be extraordinary, such that it disqualifies natural occurrences; the laws of formal logic apply: if a certain set of conditions suffice to fully explain the occurrence of an event, additional assumptions unnecessary to such explanation are assigned no probability of being true….


    1. Please explain an apparition of a figure of light as ST Mary that is moving, blessing people and so on. And why specifically St Mary appeared and not buddah, mohommad and so on!

    2. Please explain how a figure of light can cure thousands from incurable disease.

    3. Provide provable unphilosophical evidence for your answers, or your argument is void. Evidence that you can use at court! Nothing philosophical, OK!

  18. Unless Einstein’s Theory of Relativity has been disproven and the rest of the world just missed it, energy still equals mass times the speed of light squared. Which means any object exuding energy loses mass, even if they do so very, very slowly. We know it IS true by the way because it is the principle that allows nuclear reactors (and nuclear bombs) to work at all — and this very principle is that by which stars generate heat and light…. and no doubt stars sometimes eat their surrounding planets and turn into White Dwarfs, but those white dwarfs are emitting heat and light, and so long as they do this they are expending from a not unlimited store of energy…. a White Dwarf may hold sufficient mass to continue exuding heat for hundreds and thousands of billions of years, but not for an infinite length of time…. and anything that is not infinite is forever infinitesimal compared to that which is infinite!! Even new stars now forming derive only from already existing material, which will be consumed and dissipated over time; eventually, all material from which a star could even form will be gone, released into space as heat and light (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe)…. it is only on the relatively tiny scale of the finite that the inevitability of this change can not be seen.

    Now as to the Ten Commandments, what is your proof they were written “by the finger of God” and not simply written by the hand of man and mistaken for the writing of a deity? And as for converting millions and being willing to die for a belief, that rule would make Islam, Hinduism, Communism, and Fascism all to be true — how then can there be a billion Muslims, who generally seem more willing to die for their beliefs than modern Christians….

    As to your miraculous events, I have already explained how pandeism fully accounts for them — but it is simply one of many possible explanations; and yet it is one which requires fewer assumptions than any explanation which would assign additional capacities to our Creator beyond what is actually required to explain the phenomenon accounted for…. if we concede (hypothetically, for it is hardly a “necessary” thing) that there is a deity responsible for these two particular events, or for two million events like them occurring on the face of the Earth, that hardly proves such a deity to have any power outside of Earth, or to be the same entity responsible for the Creation of our Universe. Where is your proof of that, beyond the sayso of books written by primitives?

  19. Unless Einstein’s Theory of Relativity has been disproven and the rest of the world just missed it, energy still equals mass times the speed of light squared. Which means any object exuding energy loses mass Back to the physics text book as well You Go. Einstein speaks of relativistic mass loss. Not real mass change. Moreover no one has travelled at the speed of light so it’s rightly called a theory. Further how do you know that the universe doesnt change its properties, why does light have to have a constant speed. What happens when light reaches the end of the universe? Does it Stop? A million questions with no definitive answers!, even if they do so very, very slowly. We know it IS true by the way because it is the principle that allows nuclear reactors (and nuclear bombs) to work at all — and this very principle is that by which stars generate heat and light…. and no doubt stars sometimes eat their surrounding planets and turn into White Dwarfs, but those white dwarfs are emitting heat and light, and so long as they do this they are expending from a not unlimited store of energy…. a White Dwarf may hold sufficient mass to continue exuding heat for hundreds and thousands of billions of years, but not for an infinite length of time…. and anything that is not infinite is forever infinitesimal compared to that which is infinite! still not 0 though! ! Even new stars now forming derive only from already existing material,
    which will be consumed and dissipated over time; eventually, all material from which a star could even form will be gone, released into space as heat and light (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe)…. it is only on the relatively tiny scale of the finite that the inevitability of this change can not be seen. Let us assumed all what you have said is true, how will this make me know the pandeistic God! And believe him!

    Now as to the Ten Commandments, what is your proof they were written “by the finger of God” and not simply written by the hand of man and mistaken for the writing of a deity? They would have known the writing of Moses to that of God. Moses went up with no tablets and comes down with two tablets, did he miraculously find those tablets in the mountain. You can fool 1 or 2 or 3 people but 2 million Jews in the desert realised these commandments where by the finger of God. Furthermore the God of Israel was with them always, a cloud in the day and fire at night. He fed them quail in the middle of the desert as well as manna. Let us assume they were all hallucinating and they were fooled by Moses. Was Ramses II stupid enough also to fall for Moses trickery! Did Moses have power to bring down plagues of locusts, convert the Nile River into Blood, Kill all their 1st born…….. Much more a wise person would sit down and think of this. If it is false why so, if it isn’t why not and so on……….an irrational, blinded person will wonder of Einstein and his theory which has nothing to do with anything! The bible teaches me one thing about such people, professing to be wise they become fools. In a court of law could you disprove what happened in the Desert of Sinai with Moses, I don’t think So. I have been to Mt Sinai, the toughest terrain you will ever see, trust me! ! And as for converting millions and being willing to die for a belief, that rule would make Islam, Hinduism, Communism, and Fascism all to be true — how then can there be a billion Muslims, who generally seem more willing to die for their beliefs than modern Christians….( Christians die for their faith, while Islam kills for their faith ——MASSIVE DISTINCTION!) I lived in Egypt the main reason there is a billion muslims is because you get your head chopped off if you convert! I would recommend you not say Islam when arguing with me! Cause i know it back to Front, Way better than you! I have lived with these people and they kill My People in Egypt! If you want me 2 prove Jesus is God from the Quran, i will for you!

    As to your miraculous events, I have already explained how pandeism fully accounts for them — I MUST OF MISSED IT, consider me a child, in English that is elementary explain it 2 me but it is simply one of many possible explanations; and yet it is one which requires fewer assumptions than any explanation which would assign additional capacities to our Creator beyond what is actually required to explain the phenomenon accounted for…. if we concede (hypothetically, for it is hardly a “necessary” thing) that there is a deity responsible for these two particular events, or for two million events like them occurring on the face of the Earth, that hardly proves such a deity to have any power outside of Earth, or to be the same entity responsible for the Creation of our Universe. Where is your proof of that, beyond the sayso of books written by primitives? 1. The bible is divinely inspired. written over a span of 1500 years by 40 different human authors in 3 different languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek), on hundreds of subjects If you get any mathematician to work out the probability of all the prophecies from the Old Testament being fulfilled in the Figure of Jesus, you will have some ridiculous chance. I’ve done the Hard work for you Peter Stoner a renowned mathematician worked out that if only 8 prophecies where to be fulfilled by 1 man, the chance would be 1 in 100 000 000 000 000 000, Now I wonder what the statistics would be if they counted over 300 prophecies which exist! Pretty smart primitives! Im actually proud to be associated with them.

    Sayso – Where is your evidence against the bible, where is your evidence against all the scholars of the School of Alexandria, Where is your evidence against the historians of the time such as Josephus and so on! You cannot blame people for documenting what they see.

    Time for a reality check my friend, stop deluding yourself. It will get you no where in life!

  20. Fulfilled prophecies? examples please, and they’d better not fall into the classic prophetic fallacies of commonality, vagueness, self-fulfillment, or after-the-fact reporting….

    Just to be clear I’ll explain those fallacies — first as to commonality, a prophecy made five thousand years ago that the leader of the people would be a man, as opposed to a woman, is unremarkable since ALL leaders were men, then; a prophecy made by members of a group that their leader would come from one born within that group would be unremarkable for the same reason…. and a prophecy that the future leader would be descended from the long past leader is meaningless if just about everyone in the group can claim some line of descent leading back to that past leader (which, in cladistic societies is almost always the case — think about it, you’ve got two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, sixteen great-great grandparents and so on, so if you go back twenty generations where you’ve got over one million ancestors, what are the chances that they won’t include at least one great leader from your culture, especially if that leader whorishly fathered dozens of whelps?)

    Second, as to vagueness, a prophecy that some future leader to come will be born during a time of war (or peace) or of famine (or plenty) means nothing, for there is always war somewhere, and peace somewhere, and famine somewhere, and plenty somewhere….

    Thirdly, self-fulfillment — if I prophesy today that next Tuesday I’ll eat soup with eight specific ingredients, and lo, come next Tuesday I happen to make and eat a soup with those exact ingredients, am I a prophet, do my prophecies show me to have supernatural powers? Surely not, and such is the case for any prophecy where the person claiming to be its fulfillment knew beforehand what the prophecy claimed would come about, and had the capacity to pull off whatever was described would happen in the prophecy, proves nothing more than the ability to read what was written in the past….

    And, naturally, you’d better be able to prove both what was prophesied and what occurred and that the prophecy preceded the occurrence…. suppose I tell you today that seven days ago I prophesied the immanent death of Gary Coleman? Well he has died, so does my claim of having prophesied it prove my supernatural pedigree? Suppose I show you a piece of paper setting forth that prophecy and dated seven days ago, and suppose I get three friends of mine to swear to you that I wrote the note, in their presence seven days ago? What level of acceptable-in-a-courtroom evidence would you require of me to prove I truthfully foretold the death of Gary Coleman?

    And finally, all fallacies of prophecy aside, a prophecy is a “miracle” like any other, and so is fully accounted for by the theoretical model of pandeism just like any other…. ALL miracles are merely instances of humans unwittingly touching upon the unconscious mind of our Creator as it underlies and sustains the energy which is our Universe…. and, even as there are true uncertainties in the future of our Universe, there are also probabilities which may be observed to shape the next few hundred or few thousand years, probabilities too nuanced too be calculated by humans (who, after all, lack information about much of what is going on right on Earth right this moment even) but the constant calculation of which could be among the myriad flow of information in the unconscious mind of our Creator…. and after all, why are human prophecies so limited? Why do they cover only events to come within the next few thousand years, not a million or twenty million years hence? Why do they cover only events on Earth–and even then, generally only events within a few scores of miles of the site where the prophecy was made? Why no ancient prophecies about the European discovery of the Andean civilisations, or of the economic theory of Communism arising over half the world’s land and people? A prophecy of what will happen in a mere thousand years in a land a mere few hundred miles away is a minor miracle, far below the far more convincing correct assertion of what will happen to a distant star in half a million years!!

    Now, that the Bible relates some events which actually happened does not make true those events arising from myth; the esteemedly more ancient Epic of Gilgamesh speaks of events in the City of Ur — which we know, archeaologically to have actually existed at the time of the writing of the Epic; so does this prove that Gilgamesh was two parts God and one part Man, that he lay with the Goddess Ishtar and that he wrestled the Bull of the Heavens? In Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, our hero has an encounter with Hitler, who no doubt really existed and is truly chronicled — and so this proves the truth of the rest of the tale, and all Indiana Jones lore? And by the way, among the four Indiana Jones movies, the TV series, and dozens of books and comic books, there have been at least 40 writers involved in setting up a consistent corpus of work; and surely there were at least 40 writers responsible for compiling the myths of Ancient Greece, and so this must prove also that Zeus was King of the Gods, no? Where is your proof that Zeus was not King of the Gods in that case?

  21. Fulfilled prophecies? examples please, and they’d better not fall into the classic prophetic fallacies of commonality, vagueness, self-fulfillment, or after-the-fact reporting….

    Let us begin how many do you want me to mention, 1, 5, 100, 300 etc there are countless prophecies. Moreover forgetting your waffle about the pandeistic model which there is absolutely no proof or evidence for, if I can provide 1 prophecy that defies your own set laws then your argument is debunked.

    So Let us Begin

    Prophecies about Jesus’ Birth

    1. Isaiah foreshadows the virginal Birth of Jesus
    Bible prophecy: Isaiah 7:14
    Prophecy written: Between 701-681 BC
    Prophecy fulfilled: About 5 BC

    Common: I dunno any virgin girls giving Birth

    Vagueness: What’s vague about a virgin – quite descriptive actually not even a married woman. If anything you would think Isaiah is a lunatic.

    Self-fulfillment: i dunno how this would be self fulfillmant, Isaiah was dead 680 years before it was fulfilled.

    After the Fact: mmmm if you call 700 years ago after the fact then you have problems my friend.

    2. Messiah would be born in Bethlehem, from the tribe of Judah, from the lineage of David.

    Bible prophecy: Micah 5:1-2, Genesis 49:10, Jeremiah 23:5
    Prophecy written: Micah (750-686BC) Genesis (1400BC) Jeremiah( 626-586BC)
    Prophecy fulfilled: About 5 BC

    Common: That’s very specific since Bethleham was considered as trash by the Jews. When Jesus 1st started his ministry they mumbled amongst themselves does anything good come out of Nazareth.

    Vagueness: Nothing Vague here, quite specific. The prophecy was not that he will be born on a day when the sun rises or the water flows.

    Self-fulfillment: If the Jews wanted fulfillment they wouldve worshiped Jesus, instead they crucified him. Fulfillment? I don’t See it

    After the Fact: mmmm if you call 1400 years ago after the fact then you have problems my friend.

    Prophecies about His Death

    3. Zechariah prophesied that Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.

    Bible prophecy: Zechariah 11:12-13
    Prophecy written: Between 520 and 518 BC
    Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD

    Common: hahhaha i would like you to tell me how much my house would be in 520 years time!

    Vagueness: He did not say money, he said specifically 30 pieces of silver

    Self-fulfillment: He was dead when it happened

    After the Fact: Unless he was in a time machine then no!

    4. David who wrote extensively about the passion of Christ, even wrote that he would die and ressurect.

    Bible prophecy: Psalms16:9-11, Psalms 17:15
    Prophecy written: 1000BC
    Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD

    Common: Im pretty sure that ain’t common.

    Vagueness: What’s Vague about the words “die” and “ressurect”

    Self-fulfillment: He was dead when it happened

    After the Fact: Unless he was in a time machine then no!

    I show you a piece of paper setting forth that prophecy and dated seven days ago, and suppose I get three friends of mine to swear to you that I wrote the note, in their presence seven days ago? What level of acceptable-in-a-courtroom evidence would you require of me to prove I truthfully foretold the death of Gary Coleman?

    hahhaha how does this even compare to the prophecies i have mentioned above. You can play this joke until your friends are alive, but for all these prophecies to appear over a span of thousands of years, written by different people then fulfilled by one man, if that’s not evidence then i don’t know what is.

    And finally, all fallacies

    how are they fallacies, where is your proof that these things are fallacies, I would love you to look at the following link http://bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm and provide evidence for every single one disproving it

    of prophecy aside, a prophecy is a “miracle” like any other, and so is fully accounted for by the theoretical model of pandeism just like any other…

    hahhah so authoritively written, YOUR PROOF MATE – you can live in the world of theoretical models with no fulfillment in your life, as for me i live in the real world where Jesus gives me that inner peace, the love and fulfillment – i pray one day you experience this! .

    ALL miracles are merely instances of humans unwittingly touching upon the unconscious mind of our Creator as it underlies and sustains the energy which is our Universe… EVIDENCE????? . and, even as there are true uncertainties in the future of our Universe, there are also probabilities which may be observed to shape the next few hundred or few thousand years, probabilities too nuanced too be calculated by humans (who, after all, lack information about much of what is going on right on Earth right this moment even) but the constant calculation of which could be among the myriad flow of information in the unconscious mind of our Creator…

    EVIDENCE????? ..

    and after all, why are human prophecies so limited? Why do they cover only events to come within the next few thousand years, not a million or twenty million years hence? …

    The bible has prophecies not only about thousands of years, the whole book of revelation for eg is a prophecy about the end of the world – but your gonna say what is my proof of that and you know something i don’t have any because the end of the world is not here. .

    Why do they cover only events on Earth–and even then, generally only events within a few scores of miles of the site where the prophecy was made? Why no ancient prophecies about the European discovery of the Andean civilisations, or of the economic theory of Communism arising over half the world’s land and people? …

    I think God had better things in mind than these things, he wants us to go to heaven to be with him, not worry about the world. However he predicted Jerusalem would be destroyed in 70 AD..

    A prophecy of what will happen in a mere thousand years in a land a mere few hundred miles away is a minor miracle, far below the far more convincing correct assertion of what will happen to a distant star in half a million years!! …
    Your evidence that man has inhabited the earth for millions of years is required – Carbon dating is valid for a max of 10 000 years .

    Now, that the Bible relates some events which actually happened does not make true those events arising from myth; the esteemedly more ancient Epic of Gilgamesh speaks of events in the City of Ur — which we know, archeaologically to have actually existed at the time of the writing of the Epic; so does this prove that Gilgamesh was two parts God and one part Man, that he lay with the Goddess Ishtar and that he wrestled the Bull of the Heavens? In Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, our hero has an encounter with Hitler, who no doubt really existed and is truly chronicled — and so this proves the truth of the rest of the tale, and all Indiana Jones lore? And by the way, among the four Indiana Jones movies, the TV series, and dozens of books and comic books, there have been at least 40 writers involved in setting up a consistent corpus of work; and surely there were at least 40 writers

    your evidence, over what period where they written

    responsible for compiling the myths of Ancient Greece, and so this must prove also that Zeus was King of the Gods, no? Where is your proof that Zeus was not King of the Gods in that case?


    1. If Zeus was this convincing God why is all of Greece now orthodox Christians!
    2. If Zeus was real why doesn’t he reveal himself?
    3. Greek Mythology was 500 years before Christ, the biblical prophecies are thousands of years before Christ.
    4. You have no evidence about these writers, what they wrote and where is your proof they happened.
    5. And talk about your own laws about prophecies

    ZEUS is COMMON – The god of Thunder and the Sky — oo no not thunder, everyone sees thunder — and the sky is that not COMMON

    ZEUS is VAGUE – Other than the God of thunder and the sky – what do we know about him – zilch nothing

    ZEUS is the definition of SELF FULFILLMENT – People pray to him to take revenge on others.

    ZEUS is AFTER the FACT – Ya im pretty sure there was thunder before they discovered ZEUS

    My friend trust me Christianity has withstood the test of time. 2000 years and still going strong, every single argument against it has been slammed. Think About it!

  22. Well first off, since my “own set laws” fully account for limited prophecies, as they do for any other miraculous events, it would have to be quite a time-and-space reaching thing predicted to show that it proved anything more than the sort of blip in perception which could result from a moment of contact with the mind of an unconscious deity…. but since the examples you provide rely on misdirection, there’s nothing to come up to even that explanation….

    Just to be wholly clear, what is a prophecy? It is a prediction made at one time which is clear enough and straightforward enough to leave no doubt when it is fulfilled, which is demonstrably fulfilled, and which can not be “faked” by someone having simply read the prophecy doing what was prophesied. I’ll give you a better example to be clear, as you also seem to misunderstand what self-fulfillment means: In Libya, dictator Muammar Qaddafi took to wearing a blue turban at one point. You see, the seer Nostradamus had, in his writings, foretold a leader arising from the Middle East who would wear a blue turban. So does that make Qaddafi the fulfillment of this prognostication, and thereby prove that the rest of Nostradamus’ prophecies will come about? No, because the only reason Qaddafi wore the turban was that he knew of the writings of Nostradamus and wished to make himself appear to be their fulfillment. So, anyone able to read a prophetic statement about what the future great leader will wear, or some simple act they will do, can fake adherance to that prophecy.

    Now as to your specific examples. First, Isaiah 7:14 is adequately dismissed by actually reading and comprehending Isiah 7, as a whole — and in this very manner was the myth of this prognostication debunked two centuries ago by Thomas Paine…. I will allow his words to explain, as there is no need to redraw them in my own:

    “The case is this: On the death of Solomon the Jewish nation split into two monarchies: one called the kingdom of Judah, the capital of which was Jerusalem: the other the kingdom of Israel, the capital of which was Samaria. The kingdom of Judah followed the line of David, and the kingdom of Israel that of Saul; and these two rival monarchies frequently carried on fierce wars against each other.

    At this time Ahaz was King of Judah, which was in the time of Isaiah, Pekah was King of Israel; and Pekah joined himself to Rezin, King of Syria, to make war against Ahaz, King of Judah; and these two kings marched a confederated and powerful army against Jerusalem. Ahaz and his people became alarmed at their danger, and “their hearts were moved as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind.” Isaiah vii,3.

    In this perilous situation of things, Isaiah addresses himself to Ahaz, and assures him in the name of the Lord (the cant phrase of all prophets), that these two kings should not succeed against him; and to assure him that this should be the case (the case was however directly contrary (II Chron. xxviii 1-8) tells Ahaz to ask a sign of the Lord.

    This Ahaz declined doing, giving as a reason, that he would not tempt the Lord; upon which Isaiah, who pretends to be sent from God, says, verse 14, “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign, behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son–butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good–for before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land which thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings”- meaning the King of Israel and the King of Syria who were marching against him.

    Here then is the sign which was to be the birth of a child, and that child a son; and here also is the time limited for the accomplishment of the sign, namely, before the child should know to refuse the evil and choose the good.

    The thing, therefore, to be a sign of success to Ahaz must be something that would take place before the event of the battle then pending between him and the two kings could be known. A thing to be a sign must precede the thing signified. The sign of rain must be before the rain.

    It would have mockery and insulting nonsense for Isaiah to have assured Ahaz as a sign that these two things should not prevail against him, that a child should be born seven hundred years after he was dead, and that before the child should know to refuse the evil and choose the good, he, Ahaz, should be delivered from the danger he was then immediately threatened with.

    But the case is that the child of which Isaiah speaks WAS HIS OWN CHILD, with which his wife or his mistress was then pregnant; for he says in the next chapter (Is. viii,2), “And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah; and I went unto the prophetess, and she conceived and bear a son;” and he says, at verse 18 of the same chapter “Behold I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel.”

    It may not be improper here to observe, that the word translated `a virgin’ in Isaiah, does not signify a virgin in Hebrew, but merely a young woman. The tense is also falsified in the translation. Levi gives the Hebrew text of Isaiah vii, 14, and the translation in English with it–“Behold a young woman IS with child and beareth a son.” The expression, says he, is in the present tense.

    This translation agrees with the other circumstances related of the birth of this child which was to be assign to Ahaz. But as the true translation could not have been imposed upon the world as a prophecy of a child to be born seven hundred years afterwards, the Christian translators have falsified the original: and instead of making Isaiah to say, behold a young woman IS with child and BEARETH a son, they have made him to say, “Behold a virgin SHALL conceive and BEAR a son.”

    It is, however, only necessary for a person to read Isaiah, vii and viii, and he will be convinced that the passage in question is no prophecy of the person called Jesus Christ.”

    Now this, naturally, totally addresses the idea that Isaiah was predicting at all that a child would be born of a “virgin” in the twentieth-century sense of an unsexed woman. But let’s imagine that Isaiah indeed made such a prophecy. Well, what else did he prophesize? He stated with great certainty that the child would be named “Emmanuel“– dance around that all you wish, a name is a name, and a child named “Jesus” does not fit that bill, so “Jesus” is not the one prophesied (I’m sure you have some ready excuse about Emmanual having some other meaning, and if Isaiah had predicted the child would be named Cuntershite you’d be winding a tale about how Cuntershite has that meaning too, but all names have some other meaning, and the one that means Jesus is “Jesus”); Isaiah, as well, spoke of a child who would eat honey and butter– where is Jesus shown to have eaten those?

    But even all that aside, a key component of a fulfilled prophecy is proof of the fulfillment…. but there has never been, in all human history, a reliable report of a person being born of a woman who was not in some manner inseminated with the semen of a human male, and there is no proof of this as to Jesus. You speak of evidence sufficient to prove a thing in a court of law, where is this evidence? Where is the DNA test showing a human mother and no human father? Where is the report of the forensic gynecological examination performed after impregnation showing that no penis had entered the vagina of Mary? Without these things, without proof that Jesus was born of a virgin, the tale of a virgin birth becomes a fairy tale, concocted by a few zealots pushing the pedigree of their favored mystic.

    And even if we were to suppose the virgin birth without that sort of proof, but simply on the sayso of confessedly unwitnessing promoters, so what? Biology has recorded the event in sharks and lizards, seems it could happen in a rare human without supernatural causation; and, again, all “supernatural” events are fully accounted for by the pandeistic model…. you may not like the model, but it is by definition the simplest possible explanation for such things, the model from which all other theological models (except atheism, which simply fails to explain anything at all) must add assumptions and then prove them to be rationally held. To fail in understanding this is to make a straw man of the pandeistic model, to attack characteristics claimed to apply to the model, but in truth absent from its explanatory machinery.

    Now as to the naming of Bethleham, first let us clear the air of the fog of deceit, for Genesis 49:10 and Jeremiah 23:5 do not name this city at all (and though they do predict a future messiah or unifying ruler or some such, this is in the commonality category of predicting that at some future point there will be a thunderstorm), and so any claim that they do arises either from ignorance or scurrilousness. As to Micah, it does not opine at all that a “Messiah” will arise in Bethleham, but a “ruler in Israel”– a limitation which by itself excludes such person from ruling anything beyond Israel and can hardly be read to suppose a worldwide or messianic figure. And, supposing again this to be an accurate prophecy, what proof is there, besides the sayso of the promoters, that Jesus was born in Bethleham at all? Or that, even as big of a whore as David is written as, and as are many of his immediate descendants, that he was a descendant of David? The rattling off of a list of names, themselves without evidence, would not stand up in a court of law. Where is the record of birth from which confidence can be objectively maintained that of all the children named Jesus born in that era, this one was born in Bethleham and not elsewhere?

    Now to the thirty pieces of silver, there is just no such prophecy at all. Look at the line you claim, in context:

    Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

    Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.

    And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.

    And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.

    And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

    And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

    Not a solitary word about a Messiah, or the death of one; instead here is a gibberish storytelling of a man breaking a contract (using “God told me to” as a common excuse), getting paid HIS OWN value on a claim coming of this (which happens to be “thirty pieces of silver”) and then using that money to buy a pot. Perhaps that pot is your Messiah? Two little handles, short and stout? To pluck this as a “prophecy” you might as well say all of Genesis is a prophecy and no word of it has happened yet.

    And again, there is a failure of reliable proof: whichever promoter of Jesus, idiotically mistaking the passage of Zechariah as a “prophecy” could have just then conjured up that number as the supposed payment to Judas for the supposed betrayal. Now, no such payment would be needed if one believes the “Gospel of Judas” which is equal in reliability to any other Gospel of the day; but even so, where is your court-acceptible evidence of Judas receiving any payment from anyone? Where is the receipt, the bank account, the eyewitness statement? All fertile imaginings, none backed up by more than the collusion of promoters.

    And at last as for David in the Psalms, again not prophetic statements at all (the author says only “I will” this or “I will” that), and reading both the NIV and the KJV, neither of the words “die” or “resurrect” is within either of Psalms 16 or 17. And again, even so, again what proof is there that Jesus died and was resurrected at all, that (presuming the crucifiction account to be a true story) he was not taken down from the cross alive? Why trust a promoter of Jesus in this account any more than one of the “nine witnesses” of Joseph Smith’s claimed Mormon miracles? Evidence, please, that will stand up in a court of law. Coronor’s report? Videotape from the corner drugstore?

    Now, to a few of your other points.

    Prophecies about the end of the world prove nothing, unless they come about; but the sort of vague and open-ended prophecies of the Revelations are meaningless, since they predict common conditions (war and strife and natural disasters and the like) and did you know that every single generation since their first writing has pointed to events of the day as supposed fulfillments of these?

    The stories of Zeus being King of the Gods were not “prophecies” at all and I did not propose them as such, as they related events then past and present. That people credited common events to Zeus and prayed to Zeus for fulfillment of their own desires makes Zeus no different from the gods of the Bible and the Qur’an and many other strains. Now, you ask, why didn’t Zeus reveal himself– but the Greek stories relate that Zeus did reveal himself, time and time again!! Zeus, claim his promoters, showed godly powers in every instance, and even fathered children who went on to defeat horrible monsters like the Hydra and the Minotaur. So what is there not to believe in Zeus?

    Now, finally, to Christianity “standing the test of time”– well Jews reject the whole Messiah story and yet Judaism has endured far longer than Christianity; the Buddha reached enlightenment hundreds of years before Christianity arose, and Hinduism precedes Christianity by hundreds of years more, so all have done a better job of “standing the test of time”– and so should be worthier of your consideration, by your test. But, there’s a larger angle that you are missing, so here’s a parable, for your elucidation….

    When medical studies first linked tobacco smoking to lung cancer, the tobacco industry set about defending itself by discrediting those studies and seeking to convince the public of the safety of smoking. But (as was found out only much later), their own internal studies actually proved those dangers of smoking; they were deliberately peddling a falsehood that actually even killed people– why? Money. They squeezed out lots of extra prophets– er– profits by suppressing a benevolent truth. And, more pointedly to your examples, they too had their loyal followers who had absolutely no financial stake in the companies, but believed in them on the strength of their false authority enough to fervently repeat the company line out of faith. Those whose pockets were to be lined drew up the arguments, and those who had faith in them– millions of people– carried those arguments as gospel to friends and neighbors, resulting in many more cancer deaths then would have come about if the tobacco companies just told what they knew from the start.

    So here’s a vital distinction for you to consider, between just about every form of theism, but Christianity high up there in them, and pandeism. No one is trying to make money off of pandeism; the knowledge is given away for free, there are not books or movies or pleas for donations; no pandeist preacher turns his ministry into a million-dollar mansion with gold-plated toilet seats (or an entire ornate city to house the chief promoter)…. So it’s funny that while Jesus, the man, seems to have followed in the path of the Buddha and of the pandeists and never sought after riches, that so many prop up his name to enrich themselves (always pushing worship of the figurehead over adherance to the antimaterialistic message), and so many more are suckered into parroting the argumenst that line the pockets of those promoters.

  23. I dont even know what we are arguing any more …………ur waffle and babble has bamboozled me!

    In regards to Thomas Paine, i think id rather believe what the hebrew scholars have to say compared to some british pom who has no idea about the hebrew language.

    In hebrew the word used is amlah which does not mean young woman, it means maid or virgin. Moreover his understanding of Isaiah is not even worthy of comment, a novice in biblical scripture can tell you that he has absolutely no idea what he is on about. You call me ignorant and blind, well i would rather believe what millions of scholars have agreed upon than someone in Britain with no knowledge in Scripture.

    Are the scribes wrong? Well Simeon a scribe tried writing a young woman, and the lord did not make him die until he saw the living christ as we find in the Gospel of Luke.

    Furthermore this argument that Christians have manipulated the bible is absurd to say the Least. We have over 20000 scribed copies of the bible from thousands of years ago. In fact the whole book of Isaiah is indeed present from over 2000 years ago. So a knowledgable educated discerning individual will do his research before he writes this stuff.

    As to the butter and honey, hahhaha who doesnt eat that, thus no where in christianity do we say that is a prophecy. Because that would be common.

    But even all that aside, a key component of a fulfilled prophecy is proof of the fulfillment…. but there has never been, in all human history, a reliable report of a person being born of a woman who was not in some manner inseminated with the semen of a human male, and there is no proof of this as to Jesus. You speak of evidence sufficient to prove a thing in a court of law, where is this evidence? Where is the DNA test showing a human mother and no human father? Where is the report of the forensic gynecological examination performed after impregnation showing that no penis had entered the vagina of Mary? Without these things, without proof that Jesus was born of a virgin, the tale of a virgin birth becomes a fairy tale, concocted by a few zealots pushing the pedigree of their favored mystic. 1. Did they have DNA testing back then?NO, Did they have gynacologists? NO, Was it a few zealots? Mmmm no just about a billion in the world. However if you knew history you would study it and land on account of Salome the Midwife who wrote explicity of the virginity after the birth! Maybe you should read before you mock. Moreover let us assume i have no evidence, why does this make pandeism more superior, if anything less superior!

    I wont go into all the other things you have mentioned, you seem to be a learned person who i hope one day will do what Christ commanded us to do, “Search the Scriptures, in them you have eternal life”!

    In regards to your last point about million dollar manshions, i could not agree more. These people have no idea what Christianity is.

    For this reason i invite you to visit you local Coptic Orthodox Church, you will see no concerts or parties. Instead you will experience God in peace, in repentance in serinty. I moreover assure you our church is not a business! We have survived 2000 years and what we do today, is what we did 2000 years ago.

    God Bless

    Praying 4 your enlightenment

    Bishoy

  24. Well I do not believe we’ll progress any further in this discussion.

    You agree that those speaking of Christianity as a means to get million-dollar mansions are clueless as to the true meaning of the faith, but are they and their followers not the bulk of the billion+ Christians, whose numbers you point to in justifying belief in ideas such as a virgin birth? If the truth of Christianity was so evident, I would think more of those who claim to be Christians would act as though its tenets were the truth.

    Now, the “evidence” for or against the various stories embodied in any particular faith has no effect one way or another on the explanatory power of the pandeistic model, for although it explains why all miracles of all faiths should stem from the unconscious power of an underlying Creator, it is not in the least dependent on miracles for proof of the model, as it similarly accounts for all scientific discoveries.

    But I don’t think either of us will get to the bottom of matters seemingly not susceptible to proof at all, and requiring a dispassionate weighing of probabilities.

    And so, let me close my participation in this conversation on a more positive note. Lest my disdain for the bases of faith be seen as contempt for its more universal values, let me say that I find Jesus, the man, to have been a great historical figure, and the courageous proponent of many laudable philosophical ideals…. I find adherence to these ideals to be more important than the question of believing this or that about the nature of the divine (as one Muslim philosopher recited, he who does good in order to reap a reward and avoid a punishment, deserves that punishment and no reward; it is he who does good for the sake of doing good who deserves the reward); and indeed, I find Jesus’s advocacy universal love and nonmaterialism to be all the more courageous coming from a mortal man then they would be coming from a god-powered individual with no unknown outcomes to fear!!

    I appreciate, as well, your willingness to discuss these matters and the generosity and warmheartedness of your prayers for me, so thank you for that, and may you be happy all the days of your life.

  25. Thanks for your kind words.

    In regards to the many million that blindly follow these money hungry preachers, Our Lord Christ is very firm and he even acknowledged that many will follow leaders who come in the name of Christ, but at their root is personal wealth and greed.

    “And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.
    For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. (Matt 24:4-5)

    To these people Christ will tell them at the Final Judgement what was said to the foolish virgins.

    “But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ (Mat 25:12)

    For this reason i again take this opportunity to invite you to explore your local Coptic Church where you will truly experience, the true Faith, which has not changed for 2000 years.

    Praying For You!

    Bish

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